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----- Original Message -----
From: "dagmar_in_germany" <dagmar_in_germany@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 2:21 AM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] A thought

Right. This is probably the ego writing so ignore it if you want to.

I've been thinking why oh why did the Christ Consciousness, if it
really is the Christ Consciousness, do something so stupid as have a
separation thought in the first place and got us all into this
(apparent) mess which means we (seemingly) have to work our (imaginary)
socks off to get back to where we never left? Does that make sense?

What I guess I am saying is why did that first mistake happen when it
is an extension of GOD that made it happen? Isn't God perfect and would
never even think about separation?

Puzzled,

Dagmar


From: "Martha C." <martha_constain@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:52 AM  Subject: Re: A thought

Because if you are "The all-encompassing" there isn't a thought you
wouldn't have! The problem is not the stupid thought (a.k.a. tiny mad
idea), the problem is the interpretation with which it was met, and
there were two, "Ooops, ha ha.. Jesus" and "Ooops.. oh my God I've
sinned, God is coming after me, and I better get out of here!"

Jesus / HS did the first.

We're kind stuck on the latter.

It is how we interpret what we see that makes our reality or hides it.

We've done this so much we forgot what REALITY actually is and
think "this is it!"

By the way.. in non-Course language I find a beautiful passage in
Paramahansa Yogananda's "The Second Coming of Christ" that gives
these awesome words to this topic:

"Who may make bold to read the Mind of the Infinite in seeking causes
from the Uncaused, beginnings from the Ever-existing, paltry reasons
from Omniscience? Audacious mortals pursue their queries, while sages
enter that Mind and return to state in unadorned simplicity that the
One entertained a desireless desire to enjoy His Bliss through many.."

"Even as He thus dreamed, he became many.."

Yet, my friend, it is still a dream.  The Power of One created in the
Image of His Creator can dream too.. yet it is only a dream as in
reality the Ever-Whole cannot be fragmented into many.

It is fear that keeps the dream intact.

Even the Bible makes a reference to trying to understand something
that from our vantage point us unintelligible:

"For My  Thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My
ways, sayeth the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the Earth,
so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your
thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

To this the Course replies "You really think the brain can think..."

"Yet it is God's mind with which you think." (DU, Quote no. 4 from
chapter 1, p. 21. ACIM W-92).


All this to say... just seek the experience and find out why you
chose to be here and are still choosing to do so...

Love,

Martha C.


From: <ossiedreamson@aol.com> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:56 AM
Subject:How the ego came to be -- WAS "A thought"

In a message dated 11/26/2005 9:27:28 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
dagmar_in_germany@yahoo.co.uk writes:
 
I've been thinking why oh why did the Christ Consciousness, if it 
really is the Christ Consciousness, do something so stupid as have a 
separation thought in the first place and got us all into this 
(apparent) mess which means we (seemingly) have to work our  (imaginary)
socks off to get back to where we never left? Does that make  sense?

******************

Of course it makes sense, it is most common  question asked.  Still
fascinates me how many ways this one question gets  asked.   ;-)

From the FACIM.org Q&A
 
_www.facim.org_ (http://www.facim.org)
 
 #10: We have received a number of questions on the theme of the ego’s 
origin, examples of which are below ...
 
   1.  If Heaven and the Love of God were completely  satisfying, why would
the Son choose to dream he left?

2.  If God is perfect and unified, and has a perfect  and unified Son, how
could an imperfect thought of separation and division have  possibly arisen
within such a mind?

3. Once the Atonement is accepted, how do we know the ego  won’t be chosen
again?

4. How can one achieve "an experience" which the Course  says will resolve
the ego paradox?
 
 
A: i, ii, and iii above, posed as questions, are actually statements made  by
an ego mind enunciating the following: I know the ego is real, and now I want
 you to explain how it happened and how you know it won’t happen again.
 
The question "how did the ego happen," and all its variations, is 
undoubtedly the most frequently asked question of students of A Course in  Miracles.
This is only natural to an ego wanting to know where it came from,  just as a
child would question its parents about its origin. The problem is that  the ego
itself is not natural. The Course teaches us that in reality the ego  never
happened. Consequently, how could we ever find an intellectually  satisfying
answer to the ego’s origin between the Course’s covers? Those asking  how the
impossible could ever have happened must identify themselves as separate  and
individual beings, while anyone answering the question must also agree that  the
separation did indeed happen. Furthermore, if it happened once, it could 
happen ad infinitum, and in some respects it does. Day in and day out we are 
offered the choice of believing in the reality of ourselves as an ego or as a  Son
of God. Therefore, to wonder about the separation recurring is to make the 
same mistake of believing it happened in the first place. As the Course  says:
 
"Who asks you to define the ego and explain how it arose can be but he who 
thinks it real, and seeks by definition to ensure that its illusive nature is 
concealed behind the words that seem to make it so.
 
There is no definition for a lie that serves to make it true"  (C-2.2:5–3:1).
 
"The ego will demand many answers that this course does not give. It does 
not recognize as questions the mere form of a question to which an answer is 
impossible. The ego may ask, "How did the impossible occur?", "To what did the 
impossible happen?", and may ask this in many forms. Yet there is no answer; 
only an experience. Seek only this, and do not let theology delay you" 
(C-in.4).
 
God’s Love is the experience the Course speaks of in the quote above. This 
experience is attained through the process of forgiveness, which removes the 
blocks to the awareness of love’s presence (T.In.1:7). Indeed, the purpose of A
 Course in Miracles is to help us attain this experience.


Peace
Ossie


From: "dagmar_in_germany" <dagmar_in_germany@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject:  Re: How the ego came to be -- WAS "A thought"

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@yahoogroups.com, ossiedreamson@a... wrote:

"The Course teaches us that in reality the ego  never happened. Consequently, how could we ever find an intellectually  satisfying answer to the ego's origin between the Course's covers? Those asking  how the impossible could ever have happened must identify themselves as separate  and individual beings, while anyone answering the question must also agree that  the separation did indeed happen. Furthermore, if it happened once, it could  happen ad infinitum, and in some respects it does. Day in and day out we are  offered the choice of believing in the reality of ourselves as an ego or as a  Son of God. Therefore, to wonder about the separation recurring is to make the same mistake of believing it happened in the first place."


Ok, the book and you say that the ego never happened. But we do talk
about it a lot, don't we? So why are we talking about it when it
doesn't exist? If it didn't exist a least in some form why would it
have the power to blind us to the Truth? Can something non-existing
have this power? This experience may not be real but a creation of
the universe must have happened in some way or another, even if it
was only for an instant and only in a dream, otherwise we'd have no
conversation here.

Or maybe we haven't got a conversation here... *scratches head

I tell you that all of this is tying my brain into knots. It's best
when I don't think too much about it and focus on forgiving. But then
I am going to start reading ACIM tomorrow and I can be sure that it
will make me think again. Yesterday I had a blissful day, no
thinking, simply accepting the truth and I felt great. Today it is
difficult to keep that focus.

Thanks for your response, Ossie!

Dagmar


From: "Martha C." <martha_constain@yahoo.com>Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005
Subject: Re: How the ego came to be -- WAS "A thought"

Yes, and mind you, the answer given here is in relation to the origin
of the ego, which is the thought system of sin, guilt, and fear.

The Course says that "into eternity where all is one, there crept a
tiny mad idea, at which the Son remember not to laugh."
(paraphrasing).

Now, the ego was born out of our inability to laugh at the tiny mad
idea. It is merely a belief system and it has no foundation in
reality.

As the tiny mad idea came it also was dismissed simultaneously
and "not a note in Heaven was missed"

So basically the tiny mad idea of separation is inconsequential in
Heaven. Nothing happened.

The problem is that we think something happened.

That is the issue, that we believe something happened, something
awful, the undoing of God!

Nope, nothing happened. The tiny mad idea came and went...all we have
to do is remember to laugh. We do this each time we meet a
circumstance with judgment that something is amiss, innocence has
been lost, there is lack, there is absence of wholeness, there is
wrongness, etc. This is why it is so important to leave judgment
aside and remember that nothing is really going on...

Nothing happened..

Love,

Martha C.


From: "dagmar_in_germany" <dagmar_in_germany@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:02 AM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: A thought

---  "Martha C." <martha_constain@y...> wrote:
>
> Because if you are "The all-encompassing" there isn't a thought you wouldn't have!
>

Yes.... but I thought that there is no thought in Heaven? And surely I
was in Heaven when I had the original thought. Am I getting this
totally wrong? Help!!


From: "Martha C." <martha_constain@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: A thought

Ok, I see from your note to Ossie that you have not started reading the
Course. So, let's stop here and let Jesus explain it to you. We'll
always come up short since he wrote the darn thing and "we" didn't LOL!

However, one more small thing. Of Course there is Thought in Heaven...
You are one of them.

Notice the upper case 'T'

In Heaven all Thought is creative.

Let Jesus take your hand from here, enjoy your reading and experiencing
His Voice which is the Voice for God (notice it is "for" not "of")

His is the Voice that speaks for God in all of us, beconning us to
remmeber to laugh at the silly, teeny, tiny mad idea, as he did.

Love,

Martha C.


Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject:Re: How the ego came to be -- WAS "A thought...

In a message dated 11/26/2005 dagmar_in_germany@yahoo.co.uk writes:

"Ok, the  book and you say that the ego never happened. But we do talk
about it a  lot, don't we? So why are we talking about it when it
doesn't exist? If it  didn't exist a least in some form why would it
have the power to blind us  to the Truth? Can something non-existing
have this power?"


I will address this part of your post as I am sure others will  have something
to share.  Yes we do speak a lot about the ego, because we  believe we are
bodies, we believe we live on a tiny little planet called earth  one of many
planets in millions of galaxies, etc., etc. We believe we are born,  grown up
and die. 
 
If I pinch you, you will feel it.  ;-)
 
So J starts where we are, delusional little brothers and sisters, thinking 
that something can exist apart from God.
 
You said:
"I tell you that all of this is tying my brain into knots. It's best 
when I don't think too much about it and focus on forgiving"
 
 
Good suggestion, take it easy on yourself, don't wrack your brain over  it. :-) 
The ego loves you to do this.  This is not  something one can think their
way through for it only takes you so far,  it is like a dog chasing its tail,
one just seems to go in  circles.
 
If ACIM is your spiritual path you will realize through the process of 
forgiveness we are able to experience what is difficult to put into words.   This
is not an overnight night process.  The ego has invested what seems to  be
unlimited time in making sure this illusion works in a way that for the  most
part, we don't question it ... we accept it for what it is and spend all  our
energy trying to maintain it. 
 
From ACIM perspective, this vast amount of time is just a spec, a fragment 
of a moment that the Sonship forgot to laugh, the answer given and not one note
 in Heaven is missed.  However that is not our experience. For the most 
part, looking at history and the very dark times its had and still having to  this
day, it seems like it has been successful.  However, one can  only hide for
so long and we are starting to see that something is very wrong  with this
world or with the way we see ourselves and this world.
 
So know that the ego will ask a lot of questions as it needs to  be validated. 
Also know that there is a way to go beyond the ego thought  system and that
is with the help of J/Holy Spirit.
 
Then you will start to have the "a ha" moments.  ;-)
 
Forgiveness lessons abounds
 
Peace
Ossie


Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Thanks Martha and Ossie

In a message dated 11/26/2005 dagmar_in_germany@yahoo.co.uk writes:

I really  appreciate your answers and for taking the time to respond to
my questions  which have probably been asked hundreds of times before by
newbies!


You are welcome
 
As long as I think I am a body, I will continue to attempt to answer them 
... you newbies do come up with unique ways of asking this one question.
 
I now see why J dictated over 600 pages saying the same thing over and over 
and over again because he knows how our the Sonship's mind works, and
he's got  all the bases covered.
 
So don't hold anything back from him, give him everything you got, he can 
handle it.
 
:::giggling:::
 
Peace
Ossie


From: "melanie_bixby" <melanie_bixby@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 7:46 AM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: A thought

Dagmar,

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head as to the uncaused cause in ACIM
cosmology (besides the ultimate Creator, of course -- no one can ever
understand/explain that uncaused cause).  it's known as "the problem
of evil" and humans have a hard time philosophizing and hypothesizing
the logical place of its true origin.  It seems to come out of
nowhere (i.e., spontaneous generation).  It always seems like a
paradox whatever the religion or philosophical paradigm...(the
paradox that you stated below - how can 2 opposites be true at once --
 that the son was perfect and part of god, but somehow still made an
imperfect choice).

in Christian theology, the problem of evil is "explained" as being
first operationalized by Lucifer, the fallen angel (son of the
morning) who said "I will be like the most high" (i.e., ACIM is so
opposite! - the central tenant of the course that you are one with
god as a son of god...but this is taught as *the unforgivable sin*
that sends you to hell in Christianity).  Humans then were
given "free will" to choose or not choose the "forbidden fruit" in
the garden that Satan (Lucifer after the fall) tempted them to eat. 
Of course, being human, they couldn't resist choosing the "new"
option, just to see what it was like (Gloria Wapnick's vision also
seems close to this).

Based on Ken and Gloria Wapnick's "Awaken from the Dream" which
was the first systematic look at the philosophical model of the course
that I had seen before reading DU, "a part of the Son of God fell
asleep, and dreaming he had a will that could oppose the will of God,
dreamed he could separate from his creator and usurp the throne of
god".  sounds a bit like Lucifer story, no?  One day someone
just "fell asleep" and started believing their dream, or chose to
(but i haven't found the reason *why* in the course for this, only 
*what* happened).

The course's nondualistic approach then deals with the problem of
evil (acts of nonlove, sickness, death -- all the bad stuff) by
defining it away -- because only love is real, evil/fear/guilt/sin 
doesn't exist, and is an illusion set up by the ego to allow us to be
outraged at circumstances and people outside ourselves so we can
feel we are "better" than they, keep our guilt at bay, and keep us
distracted from the truth that we thought we were separated and in
BIG TROUBLE for it.  but we in fact are not/not separated - that was
a dream, a tiny mad idea. 

so I haven't found the answer to your question yet myself, in the
course, as to *why* did a part of the Sonship choose to believe their
dream of separation, which per Martha/Ossie was one of the infinite
options in the mind of God...but i have to say as a former Christian
fundamentalist with a degree in theology, that the central ACIM
tenants are a lot more conducive to mental and spiritual and
relational peace (I'm okay, you're okay -- in fact we are perfect as
we were at creation) vs. those of Christianity (you and I are sorry
sinners destined for hell, saved only by our decision to choose to
believe in Jesus' sacrifice that paid our debt or else -- we would be
off to eternal torture.  oh yes...and it's our job to convince our
children, friends, coworkers, and everyone out there this is true or
their blood is on our heads too). 

So I guess I've accepted the ACIM path based on practical, not
philosophical/theological, considerations (i.e., it doesn't explain the
"why" that a portion of the Son dreamed he was separated from God
and then felt guilt).  I LIKE the idea that a foundation of GUILT has
been identified as the culprit, residing below the circle of fear,
from which arises the world of form (can't find this passage right
now but its in the text).  and the world of form is what is supposed
to keep us from seeing that guilt is buried in the unconscious and is
also not real (as opposed to, in Christianity, our ACTUAL sin and
justification for guilt).  the only apparent way to achieve the
course's final goal of awakening to the knowledge that we are perfect
and in God, based on my understanding thus far, is to keep chipping
away at forgiveness of people, circumstances, and therefore
ourselves.  not by believing in their badness and "overlooking" it,
but by choosing to look at it with the holy spirit and see that it is
*not real* and maybe try to get ourselves to lighten up a bit.

Best,

Melanie


From: "Brett" <bpforrester@charter.net> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:51 PM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: A thought

Melanie,
It seems to me the Wapnick's are going the way of Milton a little. I am curious about the how and why of the separation, but it doesn't grind on me. I guess I am prepared to find out later. We can't undo that we are here for this experience, so let the healing begin.

You end on some important points. As the ACIM states it, "forgiveness is my function." Ending judgmental thought is a tough part of forgiveness. Your right it's forgiveness of ourselves, because we project. I think of my niece saying, "look what you made me do."

The Course makes a clear point that it is not the third testament. As you clearly point out it is not Christian. However, as I read and study it, it's not hard for me to believe that it was channeled from the Christ. The Course seems to be JC's correction of the mis-interpretations and thinking about his mission and message on earth.

I always have felt it was no accident that the Roman Empire morphed into the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Religion is about crowd control. An indwelling Christ spirit in all of us could be seen to negate the purpose of an organized religious structure. Perhaps a reason for exterminating the Gnostics. I can see the need for a church for fellowship and sharing of ideas, but the ACIM makes it clear this life is a self-study. I really like these messages from the Course, we are forgiven and we cannot fail. We just have to understand it for ourselves, we are never separate from God.

Brett
 

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